Wednesday, October 2, 2013

"The Scarlet Ibis" Discussion Thread

FIRST, please answer the following questions, I provided, regarding "The Scarlet Ibis";
when you are done, ask 2 more interpretative level questions that will propel this discussion further (save the critical questions for the end). You must respond to someone else's questions and comments at least three times (try varying up the people you respond to); show a rigorous, meaningful discussion regarding this text's ideals, values and messages. Use your annotations to help your responses.
Fluency and mechanics are a piece of your grade, so be thoughtful with how you write!

I will also be on this discussion thread once you have time to answer the questions.  I will transition us accordingly.

1.   How is the scarlet ibis a symbol for Doodle?  Be specific in your comparison
2.  List one sensory image that you felt was most powerful and tell me the effect (hence, reference a specific poignant image from the text, and what does it create?)
3.  What did you take away from this short story?  How does it speak to you?

4.  Read the following poem and answer the questions:

"Woman with Flower" by Naomi Long Madgett

I wouldn’t coax the plant if I were you.
Such watchful nurturing may do it harm.
Let the soil rest from so much digging-
And wait until it‘s dry before you water it.
The leaf’s inclined to find its own direction;
Give it a chance to seek the sunlight for itself.

Much growth is stunted by too careful 
Prodding,
Too eager tenderness.
The things we love we have to learn to
 leave alone.

Post questions for above poem:
1.  What is this poem's message?  Do you agree with the poem's message?  Use specific reference to lines and words as a part of your response.
2.  What advice does the poem seem to offer the narrator form "The Scarlet Ibis"?

110 comments:

  1. 1. Egyptians believed the ibis symbolized perseverance, aspiration and the soul. How does this connect to Doodle?

    2. Based on the following quote: I did not know then that pride is a wonderful, terrible thing, a seed that bears two vines, life and death." Explicate this quote's meaning and explain the narrator's own prideful intent with his brother.

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    1. I think that in your first question the way the Egyptians think of the ibis is the perfect description of Doodle. He powered through his disability and against all odds he learned to walk. Even though he didn't think he could do it at first he powered through and achieved is and I think that it shows that he has a strong soul just as the Egyptians described.

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    2. Doodle was a prime example of the traits that the egyptians gave the Ibis. Every day when he was learning to walk, he didn't give up. All that would come out of it would be the smile on his brothers face. For him, it was enough. Step by step, he progressed through his perseverance. Soon enough, he proved everyone wrong. Once he put his soul in it, there was no stopping him.

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    3. 1. In my opinion, the Egyptian description of the ibis very accurately portray's Doodle. Throughout the story, we were able to see Doodle form into a better version of himself as he learned how to do things that many thought never were possible for him. He persevered through the many challenges that he faced which strengthened his soul and ours as we watched him grow.

      2. To me, this quote symbolizes the harsh reality of pride. It implies that pride can have a bitter affect the choices you make throughout your life. It almost symbolizes the idea of "the grass is always greener on the other side." In the story I feel as if this idea comes up frequently. The narrator had a way of using his pride in both the dark, and the helpful ways. The helpful ways included teaching Doodle multiple new things. However, he also had some twisted ways to help himself like only teaching Doodle in order to make his own image look better.

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  2. Notice how the narrator's expectations of Doodle are tied with his own feelings. Do you judge him for his pride as much as he judges himself?

    What is the effect of having the narrator look back at the events after they happened? Why does Hurst end the story there and not return to the present?

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    1. I believe that the narrator looks back on his time with Doodle because as time passed by, he has battled within himself about leaving Doodle behind. He feels responsible for his death and realizes how much Doodle meant to him. Hurst ended the story at the scene of Doodle's death because the narrator is still screaming and crying for Doodle. He will forever. The ending speaks for itself and doesn't have to return to the present.

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    2. Personally, I do have some sort of judgement based off his pride because I do believe that in some ways he is being completely selfish. The way he wants benefits for himself because he is helping Doodle, disgusts me a bit. I just think that he truly is more worried about himself throughout the entire story than he is about Doodle.

      I actually love the fact that Hurst didn't go back to present day after Doodle died, because it let me as the reader think more about the story as a whole. It allowed time to reflect and add your own opinions into your mind as you continued to think about the story.

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  3. Why is Doodle so moved by the dead ibis?

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    1. I believe that he sees himself as the ibis and realizes that he is in the same position as it was. Wanting to do something but not being able to do it because of its body.

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    2. Doodle was moved by the bird because it symbolized himself. The fate of the bird was the same as Doodle's. Death. Doodle became so attached to the bird because he didn't want to end up just a phase in his family's lives. He buried the bird with care because he wanted the same to be done to him when his time came.

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    3. Jayden, do you think Doodle forsaw his death? Why does he feel so much compassion for the bird's suffering? Does the physical description of the bird play a role?

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    4. In reply to your question to Jayden I think that there was no way Doodle could for see his death but more that he related so much with the bird that he could also relate to it's death. It may have just been fate that he died in a similar way.

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    6. I think that Doodle was moved by the bird because it reminded Doodle of his favorite lie to tell. Doodle’s favorite lie to tell was about Peter and his Peacock. He says, “When Peter was ready to go to sleep, the peacock spread his magnificent tail, enfolding the boy gently like a closing go-to-sleep flower, burying him in the glorious iridescent, rustling vortex.” I think he saw himself as Peter, and the scarlet ibis as the peacock. He was sad to see the bird die, and to help the bird Doodle buried him. He helped the bird out just like the bird from his story helped his master. Later on, James Hurst writes, “Finally I went back and found him huddled beneath a red nightshade bush beside the road.” What I take from this was the red nightshade bush represented the scarlet ibis. So now, it was the "scarlet ibis" that was taking care of Doodle sheltering him from the rain while he needed to go to sleep.

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    7. I think Doodle was so moved by the Ibis dieing in front of him because it reminded him of what its like to be weak and almost at death. Also I think that Doodle was moved by the Ibis because that the Ibis was out of place in this yard.

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    8. I agree with Jakob because it gave Doodle a reality check that he was like the Ibis. Doodle didn't realize it until he say the Ibis die right in front of him. It showed he was weak with no support and he was just like the Ibis and out of his place.

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    9. I strongly believe that the one big reason that Doodle was so touched by the Ibis' death was due to the fact that he saw himself in the bird. I feel as if when he looked into the birds' eyes, he saw himself and all that he was. So, when the Ibis died, he may have almost felt death within him because his symbol was gone.

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  4. Remember, I want you to challenge each other with strong questions that get to the heart of the text. Look at literary devices, other symbols, elements of characterization, conflicts-internal and external to push questions and responses. Make sure to challenge each other with your questions and use the text to respond. If there is more than one person responding on the thread, read the other comments and challenge those notions. Be perceptive, use the text to answer the questions your classmates put out there and discuss this story with rigor. Make sure at some point, even if it is in a new comment box, ask a critical question and respond off of those. These questions will allow you guys to see real world purpose for the themes and ideals presented in the text.

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  5. 1. He loved the Scarlet bird, he was fascinated by it. It was also one of the last things we heard about him. The biggest reason will probably be that when he was born that he was ‘red and shriveled’. This can be connected to the fact that the bird was red.

    2. “He didn’t answer, so I placed my hand on his forehead and lifted his head. Limply, he fell backwards onto the earth.” This made my heart stop, he was there one second and gone the next. It raises questions and creates this image of how fragile humans really are.It breaks your heart to know that this little boy tried so hard to be normal, and he lost his battle due to the selfishness of man. We would rather make sure that we are safe instead of taking risk to do the same for others.

    3. I was once again reminded of how fragile humans really are. We face diseased and illnesses everyday, and we don’t realize it. We are so caught up in our own lives that we are blind to the possibilities. We do not pay attention to danger, we are taught to avoid it. Should we rather be taught how fragile we are and that we need to be careful? Will that affect the way we go on with our daily lives?

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    2. My questions:
      1. What goes through your mind knowing your brother died on your watch?
      2. How do you explain the death of your brother in these circumstances to your parents?
      3. Does the Scarlet Ibis represent something in our own lives?

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    3. In response to your first question, I feel as if the narrator had some sort of guilt while Doodle died, but also had some ego issues which cause him to make the decisions that he made. Many of the things that he did for Doodle were only to benefit himself.

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  6. In the scarlet ibis a child with a special disease (most likely muscular dystrophy), named doodle dies from being over worked. Doodle has a special link to the scarlet ibis. In fact they are exactly the same. When the ibis lands in the family's yard it is wounded and cannot fly. It tries to fly to the top of the bleeding tee but falls to the earth and dies. Doodle in the end was the exact same, he tried so hard to achieve the goals set to him by his brother. However he works himself too hard and dies trying to keep up. At the very beginning of this story the story reads “The flower garden was strained with rotting brown magnolia petals and iron weeds grew rank amid the purple phlox.” giving the vibe of death and decay. This gives you the immediate foreshadow of the story and resonates a cold feeling. This story left me with a clear message of acceptance. That even if one of your friends, brothers, ect. are different you have no right to change them. I have been placed in these situations before so this story really speaks to me.

    My question for “Woman With Flower”: can everyone truly learn to live by themselves with as little help is suggested?

    My questions for “The Scarlet Ibis”: What would cause Doodles brother to want to kill him?
    ,
    Did doodle see himself in the scarlet ibis, and that is why he buried it, or was it only out of pity?

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    1. Cooper, just a quick question based off your first Scarlet Ibis question: The narrator says that "it was bad enough having an invalid brother", which means living with someone ill, disabled or weak and sickly.Is it human nature to have doubts or ill will toward things that may be seen as weak or different? Why does hate stem from things that are so disparate?

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    2. In reply to you Ms.Comp, it is hard to accept the fact that someone is disabled, but even still is murder the best and first option? It is true hate can stem from anything, which brings up another point. Did Doodles brother's drive to make Doodle "better" stem from this hate?

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    3. In reply to your third question, I think that Doodle saw himself in the bird. I think he saw a broken body, but not necessarily a broken soul. The bird couldn't fly, but did that stop the bird from trying to fly away? No, it didn't. The bird might not have had the best fate, but at least it tried. I think that Doodle saw that. I also think that Doodle connected with it, and thought about how although he may have a disability, that didn't stop him from pushing to walk. Sure, his brother was very insistent on Doodle walking, but Doodle could've told his parents about there secret learning sessions. He even says in the story that Doodle would nod his head in reply to his brother's questioning of if Doodle even wanted to walk. So, with that said, I think that Doodle saw himself within the bird and treated the bird just as he would want to be treated if he were to die. He treated the bird with care, and gave it a proper goodbye form the world.

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    4. Hayden, the way you described how Doodle saw the bird as having a broken body but not a broken soul seems to be the best way to explain exactly what Doddle's brother thought about him after he started training in the swamp and saw that Doodle would try and try again.

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    5. Cooper my answer to your question of why Doodle's brother wanted to kill him is maybe because Doodle was different from other babes. Also maybe he didn't want to have a different brother because Doodle's brother wanted to be normal with a normal life with nothing different in it.

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  7. Here are my critical questions:
    1. How does the passage of time change people and their feelings about past events?
    2. Is it human nature to want to do things for our own pride? Is anything we ever do not for our own gain? (Hence, is any action not selfless?)

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    1. I think with the passing of time people grow wiser and more mature. It takes time and experience for people to learn their mistakes, and even right in the moment they can know their mistakes. For example, in "The Scarlet Ibis" the narrator, Doodle's brother, finds Doodle's body. I think right then, he realized every mistake he made with Doodle. Pushing him to run, swim, climb, etc. Him being so mean to Doodle and not accepting his brother the way he was. Finally, one of the hardest and biggest mistakes the narrator made, running away from Doodle leaving him in the rain. I also think that every time he sees that gravestone under what once was the bleeding tree he thinks of his time with Doodle. That's a very hard burden to carry with him, and it'll be with him for the rest of his life. The feelings will never ever go away no matter how hard he tries to forget about them. I think that it changed the narrator to become a better person and be nicer to everyone he encounters.

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    2. An answer to your second question is I think we all make decisions based off whatever is best for ourselves. I think it has a lot to do with pride and how others see you for your decisions.

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  8. The scarlet Ibis was clearly a representation of Doodle. It was a sick and gangly bird. Throughout the story the brother says that doodle gets sick all the time and also that he is a very small kid and that his limbs were thin and weak. In the story it said " It's wings hung down loosely, and as they watched, a feather dropped away and floated slowly to the ground." The wings kind of are like Doodles legs before he learns to walk, they just hung loosely just like the birds wings. It also relates to Doodle because as we know Doodle dies in the storm and this ibis has been weakened and sickened by a previous storm. Throughout the entire story the author uses tons of imagery. My favorite setting was at the very beginning it says " The flower garden is prim, the house is gleaming white, and the pale fence across the yard stands straight and spruce. But sometimes (like right now), as I sit in the cool, green-draped parlor, the grindstone begins to turn, and sometimes with all it's changes is ground away- and I remember Doodle." I love the way he describes the house in such detail. The author could have just said the house was clean and the fence straight but instead he took the time to describe it. Also the way he leads into introducing Doodle and they way Hurst allows you to infer that Doodle is dead is amazing. But the way the brother talks about Doodle is almost like he hated him and didn't want to remember him. How could he forget his brother that he left for dead? I really enjoyed reading this story and I could really relate to it. I not only have two sisters but my uncle lives with us and he has cerebral palsy so we know the constant struggle he has and how badly he wants to walk. I think it was awesome that Doodles brother taught him how to walk but I didn't like how much he pushed him and how much he was embarrassed by him. My uncle struggles with that everyday but his brother would never leave him to die or even think about abandoning him. How could his brother ever leave him? It really spoke to me because I had so much to relate to but also because it was beautifully written. I thought that the message of the story was that you have to let things grow on their own you can't hover or they will never reach their full potential. In the poem it says " much growth is stunted by too careful prodding" this means that you have to back away and allow things to happen as they are ment to. It very much relates to the " scarlet ibis" if the narrator had read this poem maybe he would have backed off Doodle and allowed him to make his own way through the world. Maybe Doodle would have achieved the lofty goals set for him by his brother if his brother had some faith in him and just let him go.

    My questions
    1. How could Doodles brother have even thought about leaving him in the storm?
    2. Did Doodle die because of the storm or because his heart gave out?

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    1. In reply to your first question. Perhaps it was his way of killing Doodle like he planned when they were younger, without actually murdering him.

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    2. But he had put so much work into Doodle. You would think that he may want to keep him alive almost as a symbol of his success.

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    3. True... However Doodle wasn't making his goal that they had set and his brother was angers.

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    4. Doodle's brother was testing Doodle to see his drive. In order to catch up with his brother, Doodle needed to get himself out of that situation through his strength. What he narrator did not know was that Doodle actually needed help and was hurt. His brother never could have predicted the outcome.

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    5. I agree that he could not have seen what would happen but it did say that his anger came out and that was why he kept running. Maybe if he had turned around sooner he could have saved Doodle.

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    6. In response to your second question, Daisy, I believe Doodle died from both reasons: his heart gave out from running so hard in the storm since he was already fragile. Also, he was bleeding from his mouth and his neck was disformed from falling by straining himself.

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    7. Responding to your second question: I think that his heart gave out and the storm did not kill him. When it said that he was bleeding from the mouth and there was no problems it seemed on the outside of Doodle then I think it was internal bleeding and that is what caused the bleeding from the mouth.

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    8. 2- I think you can blame it on both. I think the storm made him stress and that over-worked his heart. And thus led to heart failure, which is common for people with this 'disability' .

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  9. 1) The scarlet Ibis was a symbol for Doodle in many different aspects. The main comparison I made between them was that both Doodle and the Ibis were very red after their death. Another similarity is that they both died due to storms and under trees, the Ibis was tired from it’s journey (as the dad inferred) and fell from a branch; Doodle was left by his brother as they were running home and died in the storm.

    2) The scene that was the most powerful was when Doodle’s brother found him under the tree dead with blood coming from his mouth. This scene created a strong sense of sympathy in me for the narrator because I too have siblings and could not even imagine how I would feel if one of them were to die.

    3) This short story made me realize just how important my siblings are to me no matter how much they annoy me.

    4-1) The poem’s message is that if we don’t let the things we love learn what the world would be like without us such as teach the plant what hardships there are by not watering it until it’s dry, then they will not be able to survive once we aren’t there to help anymore. I agree with this message entirely because this is exactly what we are working towards in school. We are trying to learn what life is like without support from these people in our lives because, as of right now, without them we wouldn’t know what to do with ourselves if they were to leave us to our own devices.

    4-2) The advice that this poem is giving to the author of the scarlet Ibis is that if doodle had learned to do things without his brother then he may not have had as much of an issue when his brother left.

    Q1) Why did the narrator leave Doodle to himself when they had developed such a strong bond and he knew he had physical issues?

    Q2) What changed in the narrator’s character throughout the story and what caused it?

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    1. Q1- I think he went into a stage of shock, and his first reaction was to just run. It is human nature. Most of us if not all of us would have don the same. He was thinking quickly, and just reacted without thinking twice.

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    2. The narrator left him because people under pressure make stupid mistakes. Their bond was drama filled at the end. he left and you knew that the week and helpless would be subject to the storm on his own.

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  10. 1. The scarlet ibis is a symbol for Doodle because the idis dies so suddenly and it wasn’t very expected. When the author states “I ran as fast as I could, leaving him far behind” I felt that it resembled the ibis running away from the storm. It also was a symbol for Doodle because of the colour of them as they were found.

    2. When the author explains “He had been bleeding from the mouth, and his neck and the front of his shirt were stained a brilliant red” it had made me so sad and sick to my stomach. It drove me to think about what made Doodle keep trying so hard too do these things everyone said was impossible.

    3. What I took away from this short story is that no matter what hope and determination can fuel something that was impossible. It made me think that if I care as much as too try my hardest I could almost do the impossible myself. The story really spoke to me by showing people overcome some things that everyone discourages you about.

    1. I feel the poems message is that sometimes you have to let things happen on their own. I agree with the poems message because sometimes when you think you are helping but you could be hurting it more than anything else. In the poem it says that “The things we love we have to learn to leave alone” and thats where I think that the narrator should have gotten told this advice from Doodles parents.

    2. The advice the poem offers to the narrator from “The Scarlet Ibis” is that he really should have left Doodle and his parents to make the decisions of whether or not to see if he could learn to do all these different things.


    1. When Doodle “had his head turned away, and and he didn’t want to eat. I asked Why is Doodle acting so strangely all of a sudden?

    2. “ Do you want to be different from everybody else when you start school”? I asked If the narrator was scared that Doodle was going to get bullied at school?

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  11. “The Scarlet Ibis”
    1. The scarlet ibis and Doodle are both connected. They both tried very hard to achieve their goals but ended up failing. Both Doodle and the Ibis died in the same way. Pushing something over the limits of their ability which caused them to hurt. In each case there was death.

    2. A powerful image was when Doodle first walked. This was a powerful image to me because Doodle was held back by his disabilities but instead he pushed through it and showed how as long as you put your mind to it, you can go further in your life than you thought you could.

    3. When I finished reading this short story I took away how much helping people can change their lives, no matter how little you helped them and just like Aunt Nicey you will always have people put you down and make you think you can’t do it.

    “Woman with Flower”
    1. The poem’s message is not to overdue something. You have to give it time to heal before you continue.

    2. This poem connects to “The Scarlet Ibis” because it is telling you to stop and not push too hard. In the end when Doodle’s brother pushes Doodle harder than he usually did, Doodle ended up dieing because they kept trying to hard each day to get Doodle to swim, climb, etc.

    Questions:
    1. Why did Doodle’s brother leave Doodle in the storm instead of coming to his aid?

    2. Why was Doodle’s brother so intent on helping Doodle get past some things that he couldn’t do?

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    1. In response to your second question, the book stated several times that it was his pride that made him "force" doodle to get past his disabilities.

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    2. I think it is a sense of pride that makes Doodle's brother become the person he does before Doodle dies.

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    3. To answer your first question: Doodle's brother left Doodle in the storm because he didn't know that Doodle was hurt and he wanted to push Doodle to try harder to catch up with him.

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  12. Here is another critical level question: Do we need to push others above their own bounds to help them see more in themselves? Is it necessary to have others push our capabilities?

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  14. The Scarlet Ibis symbolizes Doodle in several different ways. One way that the scarlet ibis symbolizes Doodle was that the scarlet ibis was also crippled. When the scarlet ibis tried to fly away on page 6 it couldn’t and it fell off the bleeding tree and died. Doodle couldn’t walk very well at first, until his brother taught him. Doodle also couldn’t run because of his disability. His body couldn’t handle that kind of physical activity. The scarlet ibis couldn’t handle that much physical activity either. Another way that the scarlet ibis symbolized Doodle was that the ibis was scarlet, red. When Doodle dies on page 8 his blood covers him and he’s red with blood too. Doodle was like his brother when the scarlet ibis died. He took care of the bird, and buried it. Doodle’s brother found Doodle, and I’m guessing that he picked to bury Doodle under the bleeding tree because that’s where the scarlet ibis died. Doodle and the scarlet ibis had an interesting connection, and Doodle’s brother most likely saw that. The Scarlet Ibis was a huge foreshadow of Doodles death.

    One sensory image that I felt was one of the most powerful throughout the story was when Doodle’s brother found Doodle dead in the rain. Reading the three last paragraphs of the story explaining Doodle’s death really tugged at my heartstrings and was really powerful. I felt like I was in the rain too, watching the scene play out right in front of me. I could smell the rain, feel the mud squish against my shoes. It was so vivid, rain pouring all around. I could feel the broken heart of Doodle’s brother too. It was very powerful because, it showed Doodle dying. His brother had left him in the rain, sure he came back for Doodle, but it was too late.

    One thing that I can take out of this story is to never leave family behind. Sadly, when Doodle’s brother leaves Doodle behind, Doodle died. Doodle’s brother came back, but it was too late. So, another thing that I take out of this story is that life can be taken away so fast and unexpectedly. Take it for granted, when you still have the chance. Enjoy the little things in life. Treat people the way you want to be treated, because you’ll never know when it’s too late to do what you wanted to do for them.

    The poem, "Women With Flower" gave the message in my opinion is that if you don’t ever leave something alone and let it do it’s own thing, it’ll never be able to do it on it’s own again. As it says, “I wouldn’t coax the plant if I were you.” It’s saying to just leave it alone. Let it figure out how to do things on its own. I agree with this message, but I also disagree with this message. I agree that things need to be left alone to become its best self sometimes. However, other times a little help can go a long way. It’s like if someone can help a person study they should do it. They should help give them insight to be better. If the person just tells them the answers to a question and don’t let the person try and figure it out on their own that’s not good. This poem gives advice to the narrator of “The Scarlet Ibis” because Doodle was forced into learning a lot of different things. His brother was trying to teach Doodle all this different stuff because he was embarrassed of Doodle. Doodle didn’t want to learn all of this stuff at first, but his brother coaxed him into learning how to walk, run, swim, climb, etc. If Doodle’s brother had just let Doodle be, who knows what could’ve happened. We’ll never know, sadly.

    My Questions:
    What was Doodle’s disability?
    Did Doodle’s brother overwork Doodle to death or was it something else?
    Why do we always try to fix things, when they’re already perfect the way they are?

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    1. To answer your third question, I believe that the reason for this is that we always want to be able to say that you made perfect better whether they did or not. If you are talking about Doodle's brother trying to help Doodle like I think you are, then Doodle was not perfect, he had many physical disabilities.

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    2. Yes, I was hinting at Doodle and his brother. However, what I was asking more, was why do we fix things that are themselves. Yes, Doodle had many disabilities and wasn't perfect in that perspective. However, he was perfect in his own way. That's what made Doodle, Doodle. His disabilities might have been a set-back, but that's what made him special and unique. I was asking more or less why people can't see that in others, they constantly have to critique and fix peoples flaws that make them who they are.

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    3. The reason why people always try to fix things even though they may seem perfect is because every person sees perfect as a different thing. For example I may say green is the perfect color but someone else would come along and say that blue is the perfect color. So it really depends on how you justify "perfect". I think that Doodles older brother was trying (in his opinion) to help his younger brother to be perfect in his eyes.

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    4. Hayden,
      What do you mean by "fixing things when they are already perfect like they are."? I do agree with you that we as human beings get into certain instances because it's who we are, but how are things perfect before?

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  15. Critical Questions

    1) Are there sometimes symbols such as the scarlet ibis that after some time has passed since seeing the object or event that seem like they were foreshadowing for another event that has come to pass since then? If so what are they?

    2) What type of people do you think are around today that are similar to what Doodle may have become if he had grown up?

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    1. I think a huge one was the tombstone/gravestone, because it is mentioned several times at the beginning of the story, and the narrator associates Doodle,(the Scarlet Ibis), with the gravestone.

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  16. Critical Question:
    In the world today, do older siblings have that same need to make their younger siblings better? Why?

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    1. Having two older sister I think it is very important of what the impact of their actions are on their younger siblings. I think it an be good lessons or bad lessons but either way the younger sibling looks up to their older siblings. With that said, Younger siblings are going to do whatever the older sibling did or learn from their mistake.

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    2. It may be the case sometimes, but there are definitely people that put their self above their younger siblings. Siblings closer may help each other and be best friends, but I believe it is more common that people put younger brothers or sisters below themselves to make themselves superior.

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  17. 1) The Scarlet Ibis shows a good symbol for Doodle well in many different ways. One of the main ways that the Ibis shows symbolism for Doodle is that when Doodle found the Ibis it was dieing and it was in the wrong place because of a storm and this connects when it is at the end of story when he dies as well in the storm. Another way that the Ibis is a symbol for Doodle is when they both died they were very red and when they both died they were limb with no live in them anymore. One last way that the Scarlet Ibis shows symbolism for Doodle is that before the Ibis died it tried to live for as long as it could and this connects with Doodle because the doctors said that Doodle would live no longer than three months but he stayed alive until he started school.
    2) One of the most image that stuck in my head the most was ”lightning was playing across half the sky and thunder roared out.” This scene really made me remember the thunderstorms that happen in Tennessee and the storm would go on for hours and rain would just downpour and it seemed that the whole ocean in being dumped out of the skies. But the lightning would go in multiple directions and it would smash into the ground. Just overall the storm reminded me very well of Tennessee.
    3) One thing that I took away from this short story was that don’t always believe in what people say. Such as the doctors saying that Doodle wasn't going to live very long but he lived quite a few years. Also people said that he would never be able to walk but he did but just with more assistance than the normal person. But I think that its a good idea to believe people just not all the time.
    4) This poem’s message to me is right because if you love something you shouldn't change it or try to alter how it is and let it grow up naturally. Also if you try to make it learn something by force then they will never remember it.
    It gives the author advice that if you change something such as Doodle he was never supposed to be able to walk but he still taught him and that lead to the inedible that would happen to Doodle.
    My Questions:

    What was going through Doodle’s brothers head when he started to break out running?

    Why do we have to push things to the limit and possible break them?

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    Replies
    1. Jake, I think that it might have been possible over confidence in the narrator to leave Doodle behind, because he knew he had so called trained him so well.

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  18. The scarlet ibis

    1. The scarlet ibis was "...a great big red bird!" This larger than life bird was unique and beautiful in it's own way. It sat unsettled in the bleeding tree. But as it fell and landed to a sad death. It's beauty had not changed. "Even death did not mar its grace, for it lay on the Earth like a broken case of red flowers..." This bird symbolizes Doodle perfectly. Doodle was unique and special and all around beautiful. But he struggled through everything and endured a terrible death. But even as ugly as death is, Doodle's beauty never failed to shine through.
    2. The most apparent and important sensory image was the color red. The color red and blood were incorporated several time in the short story. When Doodle was first born "...he'd push himself up, turning first red, then a soft purple..." Doodle's strugges all seemed to relate to red or blood. Doodle's brother states "There is within me a knot if cruelty borne by the stream if love, much as our blood sometimes bears the seed of our destruction, and at times I was mean to Doodle." This portrays one of Doodle's struggles which was tied to blood. One of Doodle's main symbol was the scarlet ibis. This bird was big and red. It also fell from the bleeding tree. And as Doodle died, he was covered in a "brilliant red" and lay underneath the red nightshade bush.

    3. This short story made me think about the impact of family on children'so lives. How could have this story changed if the parents were more involved? How could it have changed if Doodle's brother viewed him differently? What does that say about love? What does it say about selfishness? I want to treat my younger brother with every bit of love I can give after reading this. Even though we may not realize it, children take everything to heart. Every child deserves love. The way they look should not change that. Family evolvement is so important in every family. Doodle might have had a different fate if he was accepted and loved 100% for his flaws.

    Women with Flower

    1. This poem's message is to let things grow on their own. "The leaf's inclined to find it's own direction." Let them make their own decisions. It's okay to help they when they need it. "Wait until it's (the soil) dry before you water it." Andif you help too much it could lead to a negative outcome. "Such watchful nurturing might do it harm."

    2. The family should have let Doodle be. They should have helped him when he needed it but not pushed him to grow in a certain direction. The "watchful nurturing" did do harm. Doodle was pushed to be different. He was "nurtured" in a way that was urging him to be a different persons. The authors message is to let things grow on their own and be themselves.

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  19. The scarlet ibis

    1. The scarlet ibis was "...a great big red bird!" This larger than life bird was unique and beautiful in it's own way. It sat unsettled in the bleeding tree. But as it fell and landed to a sad death. It's beauty had not changed. "Even death did not mar its grace, for it lay on the Earth like a broken case of red flowers..." This bird symbolizes Doodle perfectly. Doodle was unique and special and all around beautiful. But he struggled through everything and endured a terrible death. But even as ugly as death is, Doodle's beauty never failed to shine through.
    2. The most apparent and important sensory image was the color red. The color red and blood were incorporated several time in the short story. When Doodle was first born "...he'd push himself up, turning first red, then a soft purple..." Doodle's strugges all seemed to relate to red or blood. Doodle's brother states "There is within me a knot if cruelty borne by the stream if love, much as our blood sometimes bears the seed of our destruction, and at times I was mean to Doodle." This portrays one of Doodle's struggles which was tied to blood. One of Doodle's main symbol was the scarlet ibis. This bird was big and red. It also fell from the bleeding tree. And as Doodle died, he was covered in a "brilliant red" and lay underneath the red nightshade bush.

    3. This short story made me think about the impact of family on children'so lives. How could have this story changed if the parents were more involved? How could it have changed if Doodle's brother viewed him differently? What does that say about love? What does it say about selfishness? I want to treat my younger brother with every bit of love I can give after reading this. Even though we may not realize it, children take everything to heart. Every child deserves love. The way they look should not change that. Family evolvement is so important in every family. Doodle might have had a different fate if he was accepted and loved 100% for his flaws.

    Women with Flower

    1. This poem's message is to let things grow on their own. "The leaf's inclined to find it's own direction." Let them make their own decisions. It's okay to help they when they need it. "Wait until it's (the soil) dry before you water it." Andif you help too much it could lead to a negative outcome. "Such watchful nurturing might do it harm."

    2. The family should have let Doodle be. They should have helped him when he needed it but not pushed him to grow in a certain direction. The "watchful nurturing" did do harm. Doodle was pushed to be different. He was "nurtured" in a way that was urging him to be a different persons. The authors message is to let things grow on their own and be themselves.


    My questions

    1. Did Doodle's brothers view of Doodle impact Doodle's decisions?
    2. Did Doodle love himself or his family more? Depending on that answer how did that effect his view of himself?

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    1. I am responding to your second question. I Think Doodle loved his family more than him but he didn't express that to well. I think Doodle saw himself and an independent person till his brother left and then he say himself as someone who is going to need help constantly and didn't know how to act then.

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    2. I think that the brother's view of Doodle did not and did effect Doodle's decisions. Doodle's brother viewed Doodle as a cripple but Doodle did not try to fix that and in the story he did not want to learn how to walk he told his brother he could not do it. A way that I think the brother's view of Doodle did affect him was, at the start when he had to take him everywhere his brother thought of him as a burden and Doodle did not want to be one. An example of Doodle not trying to be a burden is, sometimes when his brother accidentally turned the go-cart over Doodle never told his mom so he tried not to be annoying in that way.

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    3. In response to you first question I believe that Doodle loved his family more because he wouldn't have done all of those things to change himself if he loved himself more. Why do you think Doodle learned how to walk, he wanted his brothers acceptance so his brother would be proud of him, if he loved himself more than he wouldn't have cared what anybody thought of him.

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  20. 1. The scarlet ibis is a symbol for Doodle because the narrator shelters Doodle from the rain with the same love and respect that Doodle shows for the ibis when he finds it in the yard. Doodle buries the bird with respect even though his mother told him not to touch the ibis.
    2. “Limply, he fell backwards onto the earth.” In this sentence the author paints a perfect picture in just a few words and shows how quickly Doodle died. This image creates a very sad feeling and shows his return to his origin.
    3. I took away the fact that I would have no idea what to do if either of my brothers died like that. Even if one of my brothers died from sickness with tons of warning I wouldn’t know what to do with my self.
    4-1. The poems message is let someone do what they want to do and if somewhere along the way they need help, then point them in the direction but don't do too much to help them. I would definitely agree with the poem especially the line “Such watchful nurturing may do it harm.” I think that if you help someone too much then the will not know how to function when they have to do it on their own.
    4-2. The poem’s advice to the narrator is don't push Doodle too hard. He is fragile and needs to rest as well. The poem also says if Doodle had learned to walk on his own he wouldn’t have been in such trouble when he was left behind.

    My questions:
    1. What made the narrator change his mind about killing Doodle?
    2. How did Doodle die?

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    1. In response to your first question: The narrator changed his mind about killing Doodle when he saw him grin and he immediately thought of all the possibilities he could do to "fix" his brother because he decided Doodle was "all there".

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    2. I don't think the narrator thought about actually killing his brother. I think that he only said he was going to be because he was angry about having a brother who wouldn't be able to be active and have any fun because his disability would hold him back from those activities. I think that the older brother just had to learn how to cope with Doodle and his disabilities that went with him. Then he would eventually realize he loved his brother.

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    3. I didn't completely agree with the message of the poem. Loved ones shouldn't be totally left alone, but pointed down the right path. As long as they have a good direction initially then I do agree with the poem's message.

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    4. don't you think that maybe Doodle shared some physical attributes with the scarlet ibis?
      I think doodle's death was imminent I just think the author made it a mystery to be a mystery and its not about how he died, its about him dying

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  21. 1.The scarlet ibis is a symbol for Doodle because its like the larger than life bird that Doodle imagined. When Doodle saw the scarlet ibis he called out “ Its a great big red bird!” it was like the Big Great bird from Doodle’s imagination. Like Doodle imagined the bird sheltering him, his brother sheltered Doodle’s body.
    2. A sensory image that I felt that was powerful was how Doodle’s brother taught him how to walk and never gave up on teaching him how to walk. In the story the brother says that he taught Doodle how to walk because he was ashamed to have a crippled brother, but I also think that he wanted it for Doodle’s sake as well. The powerful part about this story is at the end when Doodle and his brother’s plans had not worked out and the brother’s cruelty got the best of him and left Doodle.
    3. “The Scarlet Ibis” left me with a sense of sadness not just for Doodle, but for his brother too. Doodle trusted his brother, but his brother took advantage of his mixed feelings for Doodle’s illness. I realized how fragile life is and if you’re careless, you could hurt yourself and/or those around you very quickly.


    Question for “Woman with the Flower”: When you love and care for something so much, how do you leave it alone?
    Questions for “The Scarlet Ibis.” Would Doodle have lived longer if his brother didn’t interfere with his life?
    Why was Doodle’s brother so frustrated with Doodle?

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  22. 1. When the ibis flies into the yard of the narrator, his dad says, “It looks tired… Or maybe its sick?”, that is one way that the ibis compares to Doodle in this story. The dad indirectly compares Doodle to the ibis. Later in the story, when Doodle dies, he was just like the ibis he was sick and tired, and could not continue on. The ibis tried to flap his wings before he died, just like Doodle tried to run in the rain. “Dead birds is bad luck…Specially red dead birds.”, those were the word’s of the narrator’s Aunt Nicey talking about the ibis. It turns out that Doodle would end up just like the ibis, dead and all red. I also think that for a brief moment, Doodle compared himself to the ibis, and saw what it was going through and felt sympathy and a connection to the red bird.
    2. The most powerful sensory image for me was when the narrator went back for Doodle, he found Doodle under a red nightshade bush with his face buried in his arms. To me, that creates a very clear image of Doodle and what his current state is. The narrator basically just painted the same picture of the ibis back when it died.
    3. I can connect very closely to this story, because I have a little brother too like the narrator, and I can connect very well with what is going through his mind. I know what it feels like when your little brother does thing that embarrass you, and you hold high expectations of them. I hold high expectations for my little brother, because I see what he can do, and what he can become, like the narrator saw in Doodle. What I took away from this story, was that you shouldn't hold high expectations of people, because they do what they want to do, and you shouldn’t force them to become your sense of pride. Like Doodle and the narrator’s relationship.
    1. The poems message to me, is that to nurture life, we sometimes have to let it try to nurture itself. We can not helicopter over life, if we don’t let it out from under the rotors occasionally, it will not live.
    2. I think that the narrator could learn to let Doodle to try and let him live on his own, without him hovering over him 24/7. Basically to trust Doodle, and let him try to succeed on his own.
    Qs:
    Why does the parents of the narrator do nothing to help him to nurture Doodle?
    What made the narrator leave Doodle behind, and does that relate to the ibis leaving its home and going to Florida?

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    1. I think there are two reasons why the narrator's parents did not help him nurture Doodle. The first reason is that they wanted him to have a tight bod with his brother. They also probably knew that he wanted to do something to do all the things he wanted to do with somebody else like he said in the 3rd paragraph in the story.

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    2. Q1- I think they gave up hope, they did not have a reason to "fix" him like his brother did. They were not as driven.

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  23. 1) The Ibis symbolizes Doodle in a lot of different ways. I know one that come to my mind first. It is the probably the most obvious but it really stood out to me. The way is see the ibis symbolizing Doodle is both the Ibis and Doodle are are disabled. What I mean is on page 6 the Ibis is found and and Daddy says it is sick or tired but then in the text it describes its problem. The quote from the book is, “At that moment the bird began to flutter , but the wings were uncoordinated, and amid much flapping and a spray of flying feathers, it tumbled down, bumping through the limbs of an S, then straightened out, and the bird was still. A white veil came over the eyes and the long white beak unhinged. Its legs were crossed and its clawlike feet were delicately curved at rest. Even death did not mar its grace, for it lay on the earth like a broken vase of red flowers, and we stood around it, awed by its exotic beauty”. What I mean really is they are both limited. They show that being limited can be bad( the ibis) and better but not best( Doodle).


    2) The one sensory image I thought was that powerful was in the very beginning when the author was describing the change from summer to fall. The quote he used is on page 1 and it reads “ It was in the clove of seasons, summer was dead but autumn had not yet been born, that the ibis lit in the bleeding tree. The flower garden was strained with rotting brown magnolia petals and ironweeds grew ran amid the purple phlox. The five o’clocks by the chimney stilled marked time, but the oriole nest in the elm was untenanted and rocked back and forth like an empty cradle. The last graveyard flowers were blooming, and their smell drifted across the cotton field and though every room of our house, speaking softly the names of our dead.” This makes me see it all. For me it really sets the scene and I can smell the flowers and see the nests in the trees and I feel the breeze of autumn coming.


    3) This short story made me think about family and the impact they have on our lives. What if Doodles brother didn't leave him? I think of how close Doodle is with his brother. I think that Doodles brother saying he was going to get Doodle to walk was when it hit me that this story is about family. I think about how they all cared for Doodle so much and that was sweet.


    4)

    A) The message of this poem I believe represents a mother having a hard time letting their children grow up. I say this because it talks about how the leaf will find its own direction. This supports the message by saying the child will figure out its own path even if it hard for the parent to understand. Another line that helped me chose this meaning was when the author wrote “Such watchful neutering may do it harm.” This to me says you have to let your child live a little instead of always saying no.


    B) I think this says that Doodle should have not relied on his brother so much. I say this because it was really hard for him to juggle everything on his own. If he did more for himself he probably would have been better off when his brother left him.



    Questions:

    -> Why did the author separate the two brothers after creating that bond in the story?
    -> How did Doodle change with the separation and throughout the story?

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    Replies
    1. I agree with your opinion on "Woman with Flower". I think that parents try to find their child's path rather than giving their children the chance to do it on their own. I also agree that parents should let their children live their life and experience new things instead of keeping them sheltered.

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    2. Honestly the reason most writers do stuff is to make it more dramatic so the author created the bond so that it would be harder so say goodbye at the end of the story. And you should pose the question, What kind of bond did the two brothers share? Just some food for thought

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  24. 1. The scarlet ibis is a symbol for Doodle because the ibis was weak and sick, similar to Doodle’s situation. The text says that the ibis’s wings were uncoordinated, it tumbled down the tree, and was bumping into the branches of the bleeding tree. The ibis was trying with all its might to stay in the air but it kept falling closer and closer to the ground to die. The ibis was a symbol for Doodle because Doodle had worked really hard to be able to walk, run,swim, and do all the activities that his brother wanted him to be able to do, but in the end Doodle too, could not hold on to life any longer. The ibis showed perseverance when he was trying to fly but couldn’t, same with Doodle when he tried to live up to the expectations his brother had for him.


    2. The sensory image was most powerful in the introduction to the story. “It was in the clove of seasons, summer was dead but autumn had not yet been born, that the ibis lit in the bleeding tree. The flower garden was stained with rotting brown magnolia petals and ironweeds grew rank amid the purple phlox.” The effect of this is that it sets the mood of the story to be sad. It also gives hints or foreshadowing about the story and how it will involve the loss of someone’s life when it talks about death.


    3. What I personally took away from this story was that you can not abandon the ones that you love most. For instance, in the story when Doodle was sitting in the rain calling out to his brother not to leave him, his brother ran further away despite Doodle’s plea for him to stay. I took this away from the story because when I think of family, I think of sticking with one another and always being there for each other’s support. So when Doodle’s brother left him in the rain alone, I felt heartbroken. Not only because Doodle was left alone, but because he was alone in the last minutes of his life. This story speaks to me because I can relate to the older brother very much. My brother was in a wheelchair and was unable to walk for quite a length of time. This story speaks to me because I helped my brother as much as I could just like Doodle’s brother did for him. What I also gained from this story was the idea of sibling friendship. Since the parents did not play a big role in the story, I think that Doodle and his brother had to rely on each other and became best friends as well as even closer brothers since the narrator felt that Doodle was an “invalid brother”.


    4. “Woman with Flower”

    1. The poem’s message is that people have to let things happen on their own. I agree with the message because if someone or something becomes so dependent of that one person who does everything for them, it will hurt them in the end because they won’t know how to do anything for themselves. “Give it a chance to seek the sunlight for itself”, is saying that everyone needs to be able to figure out some things for themselves and view it as they see, rather than how someone else does.



    2. The advice the poem offers the narrator from the “The Scarlet Ibis”, is that he should have left Doodle alone when it came to making him be like a normal kid. I think Doodle may have lived longer if there wasn’t the constant pressure of becoming a normal person rather than being who he has. Although Doodle probably did appreciate the help he got from his older brother, I think Doodle probably would have wanted to work at his own pace for his own reasons, not because his brother was ashamed of him being disabled.




    My Questions:

    1. Is the narrator guilty for leaving Doodle in his last moments of his life, specifically when

    Doodle telling him not to leave?

    2. Why was it so hard for the narrator to except Doodle for who he was?



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    1. I agree with the confusion about the narrator's acceptance of who Doodle was because honestly, there is so much of this judgement in the world today. I think it is because of the way we grow up. We are taught not to challenge what we are told. And we are taught to fear change. I just think that people are scared about differences between others because it may not be the "standard" that the society today is used to.

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  25. 1.The scarlet ibis is a symbol of Doodle in many ways. One of these is when the bird showed up and Doodle’s dad noticed that he probably came from a storm. When Doodle died it was during the storm. The bird also got hurt in the storm and was probably one reason why it died. Doodle while running along his brother ended up falling and hurt himself. His brother just kept running and thought Doodle would catch up but never did. In the story the brother said, “the tear blurred vision in red before me looked very familiar.” This is when his brother notices that his dead brother looked like the scarlet ibis that died in their yard earlier that day. Also the brother also thought that Doodles neck looked very long when he laid dead on the ground. The scarlet ibis had a long neck as well. When the scarlet ibis died before that, he fell out of the tree tumbling from the branches uncoordinated. Doodle had always been a cripple and uncoordinated, and the last time he was alive was when he “tumbled” to the ground like the ibis. The last evidence of the scarlet ibis being a symbol for Doodle is when they found the scarlet ibis it was in a tree and ended up dying under that tree. Doodle when he died was under a bush.
    2. The image that struck me as most powerful was, “I screamed above the pounding storm and threw my body to the earth above his.” This is so powerful to me because it gives you a good image of how the brother felt and acted when he saw his brother dead. His brother screamed out in frustration as he saw that maybe if he stayed and waited for his brother this might have never happened. This also showed how much he loved and cared for his brother. Even though at points when the brother thought of killing Doodle and was embarrassed by him he still cared about him.
    3. One thing I took away from this story is how love grows for people in your family. Doodle and his brother created a tight knit bond between each other and when that was taken away from the brother he was completely devastated. If my brother died today or whenever I would be totally devastated as well and my brother and I do not have this type of bond like these two brothers had of practically being connected.
    4.
    1) This poem’s message is saying pretty much taking care of something 24/7 when it does not need it is really bad for it. I agree with this message because sometimes people need to learn to do things, how things work and what they are. As it says in the second line first stanza says, “such watchful nurturing may do it harm.” This shows that if you shadow something or someone all the time and help it with everything then that could harm something or someone in the future.
    2) If you take care of Doodle all the time and are too eager to help him grow up faster than he is made to then that could hurt him in the future. The brother expected his Doodle to get up and catch up to him in the rain but it never happened and it cost him Doodle’s life.


    questions:
    1. Do you think Doodle’s brother expected to much of him that is why he left him in the storm expecting him to catch up?
    2. What is the cause of Doodle’s death? Why think this?

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    Replies
    1. I think that the cause of Doodle's death was not because he was overworked from his brother's training or because he was in the storm. I thought that Doodle died because he was somehow connected to the ibis. When Doodle saw the ibis die right in front of his eyes, I think it shocked Doodle because he knew that he was just as weak as the bird was. I think that since Doodle was the one to bury the ibis, he felt like he could relate to the bird since it had died, and everyone had thought that Doodle was going to die his whole life. I think Doodle knew it was him to go and be with the ibis.

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    2. Yes, I think that Doodle's brother thought Doodle would get up and catch up because earlier in the story he fell and Doodle's brother just said "Come on Doodle you can do it." Doodle did get up, so he thought he would this time and he didn't.

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  26. In the short story “The Scarlet Ibis” by James Hurst, Doodle is represented very well the scarlet ibis. First off Doodle had many problems like not being able to walk and having a weak immune system. The scarlet ibis was also injured and messed up too. They said that the ibis wing hung loosely down. Also the bird was red kind of like how Doodles shirt was stained a brilliant red.

    “They named him William Armstrong, which is like tying a big tail on a small kite. Such a name sounds good only on a tombstone.” This sensory image in my opinion is the most powerful because from this text we know that Doodle is going to die and it gives us major foreshadowing to what lies ahead. This also helps establish the tone and mood of the short story.

    What I personally took away from the short story is that all people are different and that how you are raised affects how you turn out to be in life. For example Doodle is a very different kid. He loves President Wilson and has many birth defects. He is in my opinion a stronger person than most people I know. Also how you are raised affects how you turn out is also greatly demonstrated by Doodle because if his older brother had not pushed him to walk he would probably never walk in his life.

    The poems message is saying that when you are raising something as in a plant or as in a human you do not need to somer it and totally take control over it because if you do then it probably not end up surviving well on its own. I do agree with the poems message. I strongly agree when it says “And wait for it to be dry before you water it” because it is basically saying that you still need to take care of it but you need to have that right balance between over protecting it and not protecting it at all. What the advice of the poem is giving to the author is that Doodle needed to learn to do things on his own and not be babied by his older brother.

    What do you think the author means by when he says, “...nobody expects much from someone called Doodle.”?
    Why do you think that Doodle would listen to his older brother and always do what he had told him to do?

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    1. I also thought about the foreshadowing with William Armstrong only sounding good on a tombstone. Could the narrator have changed his name to forget about his certain death?

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  27. 1. Doodle’s death relates to the death of the scarlet ibis in several ways. Both of them died lost. Doodle died trying to find his way home, but was lost by the storm. The ibis was taken by the hurricane, left for dead far from home. They were also both red. Doodle had blood pouring from his mouth, turning him red as the ibis was.

    2. I felt the most powerful sensory image in the short story was at the end. The narrator called his corpse his, “fallen scarlet ibis.” This metaphor creates a very strong image of how precious the narrators little brother was to him. It also paints a picture of how gruesome his death was, as the scarlet ibis is a solid red, as if blood stained.

    3. This short story was very depressing and does have a message. I believe the message is about pride. Ones pride should come from him/herself, and not let it look down on others. The brothers pride was too great and he felt no other choice than to make Doodle and normal child in order to have a normal family. That mind set caused him to abandon his disabled brother, leaving him for dead.

    4. 1. The poems message is the last sentence. “The things we love we have to learn to leave alone.” I partially agree with this poem’s message. I believe one should be able to make his/her own decisions, but people with more experience should be sure they are not the wrong choices. A path for a loved one shouldn’t be forced upon, but an attempt should be made to point them in the right direction.
    2. This poem is advising the narrator to allow doodle to walk his own path. It was an incredible thing that he had taught him to walk, but he must allow doodle to be himself. Everyone has their own life, and it should not be controlled by someone else.

    Why did the narrator continue to try to make Doodle perfect, even though he physically can’t?

    Why didn't doodle step up for himself and reject his brothers training?

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    1. To respond to your second question I think that Doodle didn't stand up for himself because he is still at a young age where he will listen and do almost everything someone will tell them. Also I think when Doodles older brother was training him his older brother had lots of confidence that Doodle could do it. For example in the story Doodle was telling his brother that everyone said he can't walk including the doctor and his mom but his brother still picked him up and tried to make him stand. I think this just shows how much confidence his brother had in Doodle and so far Doodle had no reason not to trust his brother.

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    2. To respond to your second question Doodle didn't stand up to his brother because Doodle was a very kind and loving person. He also would have done about anything to feel accepted from the one person who should have excepted him in the first place. Doodle knew that his brother was embarrassed by him so he would have done anything to reach his brothers level of acceptance.

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    3. I think that the reason that Doodle didn't stand up for himself is because he didn't know better, he wasn't taught how to.

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    4. I think that Doodle did what his brother said even thought he was week he did it anyways was because he wanted to show his brother that he was better than he thought he was. Also I think that he wanted to be a lot like his older brother, so he did everything his brother said to.

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  28. 1) The scarlet ibis was a symbol of Doodles fate. When the bird fell and died, so did a little part in Doodle. It wasn’t just a bird to him. By burying the bird, Doodle in a sense grew up. He knew that someday it would too, be his fate. Symbolically, Doodle is the bird and when doodle dies, his family will treat him like they treated the bird. A nobody, someone who was born in the world to die. Meaningless.
    2) “A grindstone stands where the bleeding tree stood, just outside the kitchen door, and now if an oriole sings in the elm, its song seems to die up in the leaves, a silvery dust.” This was the piece of text that stood out to me the most. It describes the meaning of death and grieve in only one sentence. It sets the tone of the whole story of sadness, sorrow, and guilt. The emptiness that this sentence foreshadows, describes where the grindstone was placed was meaningful. Just outside the kitchen, was was the grindstone and the thebis event.
    3) This story reminds me of my little brother and I’s relationship. My brother may not deal with the same physical struggles as doodle, but I think that they are both alike in other ways such as their intelligence. The relationship of test and harsh love both describe Doodle and his brother’s, and my brother and I’s. What I finally realized was that you really don't know what you have till its gone. Before a sequel is created about my brother and I, I am going to start to build the foundations of a better relationship with him.
    4)
    1) The poems message to me is is to not force or push things in life. Never live by prematurely doing anything that you or someone else is not ready for. Like the poem stated, “Let the soil rest from so much digging-” In other words, after much strain and work, take a break to enjoy what you have accomplished.
    2) The poem is saying that the narrator should have stopped pushing Doodle do thing that he was not ready to do. Not for his brother but for his own advantages, the narrator forced Doodle to walk, then run, then swim. All of these thing he may have never had a desire for.

    Interpretive:
    1)Are there any parts of the text that show a dual perspective or double meaning? If so give examples.
    2)What is the dominant tone of the text? Give examples to show your thinking.

    Critical:
    1) Judged on the facts you know, did Doodle’s brother intentionally leave Doodle in the forest to kill him?



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    1. To answer your critical question I would have to say no he didn't intentionally leave Doodle to kill him but I do believe that he did it subconsciously. When Doodle was first born his brother hated that he might never have a normal brother and he wanted to kill him. Well when Doodle wasn't showing signs of being normal when he went to school all of those feelings of embarrassment came back and so while he didn't intentionally do it he did subconsciously.

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  29. Critical Questions:

    1. Why can't people except others for who they are? Why do they have to change
    them to fit their standards?

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    1. People can't accept others for who they are because it is just human nature not to not accept other for the way they are. I think that it is relevant back to when humans were first on the planet. We knew that we had a better chance of survival if we stay in a group. In this group we can hunt and gather together to be more efficient humans. So if any individual was to be different in any way then we would either reject them or change them to fit our standards.

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  30. Critical Question

    Do you think there was a bigger reason for Doodles brother to leave him behind in the swamp other than a streak of cruelty?

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    1. I believe that deep down inside that Doodle's brother still deep down was ashamed of his brother, he also knew that Doodle was probably not going to make it.

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  31. 1. In the “Scarlet Ibis” by James Hurst, it’s about one little boy who was born “red and shrivel.” The boys nickname was Doodle and he was always a little off because he was born with a caul. The scarlet ibis symbolizes Doodle because when he was born he was “red and shrivel,” and when he died he was “bleeding from the mouth, and his neck and the front of his shirt was stained a brilliant red. Another way it symbolized Doodle was when they first saw the bird the author described the bird looking “Tired or sick,” and when it went to fly “the wings were uncoordinated, and amid much flapping and a spray of flying feathers,” This symbolizes Doodle because with Doodle being born with a caul his movements and developing skills were always a little off and he always looked uncoordinated, even when Doodle was burying the bird the author described that he was “ awkward.” The Scarlet Ibis was originally from the tropics of South-America to Florida, so it was obviously somewhere it didn’t belong and while reading this story I felt as though Doodle was in a place where he didn’t belong because he was so different.
    2. Out of all of the sensory images this short story had the one when the brother found Doodle dead. “Limply, he fell backwards onto the earth. He had been bleeding from the mouth, and his neck and the front of his shirt were stained a brilliant red. He lay very awkwardly, with his head thrown far back, making his vermilion neck appear unusually long and slim. His little legs, bent at the knees, had never before seemed so fragile, so thin. I began to week, and the tear-blurred vision in red before me looked very familiar. “”Doodle!” I screamed above the pounding storm and threw my body to the earth above his. For a long time, it seemed forever, I lay there crying, sheltering my fallen scarlet ibis from the heresy of rain.” This sensory image made me cry, I’ve never felt so much emotion. In this sensory image I felt a connection because I have a brother and I could connect to how the brother was feeling, if I found my brother dead and knowing that it was probably my fault I would die inside. I loved how they did this scene in the rain because the way that the rain was pouring down I felt as though I was there and I could feel it and smell the rain. The perfect weather for something tragic to happen.
    3. From what I took away from the story was that I ended up hating the brother and questioning myself and seeing if I was unappreciative to a Doodle in my life. The brother was a unappreciative person who didn’t see Doodle for who he was, instead was seeing him for all the things that he couldn’t be. It made me incredibly mad when after Doodle started walking he still wanted him to change because he wanted Doodle to go to school and be normal. I really took a hard look at the people who I care about and love after I read this story, because I didn’t want to hurt anyone the way the brother probably hurt Doodle.
    4.1) The poems message was that if we have someone we love we can’t be overprotective even if we want to. They have to grow on their own and show/learn their own strength. If they don’t then it’s easy to take them down and hurt them. I absolutely agree with this message because you can’t always have someone there to protect you. “Such watchful nurturing may do it harm.” Say if I was very overprotecting of my best friend and I watched her all the time and never let anyone hurt her. While doing this she never learned to how to stand up for herself and protect herself. Well I can’t be there all the time and while I was gone someone actually hurt her and she got hurt. By protecting her and never letting her learn how to stand up and be an independent she just got hurt in the end.
    2) I think that while you can’t overprotect someone you love, you also shouldn’t try and push them past their limits. The narrator of “The Scarlet Ibis” should have looked out for Doodle more than he did and put Doodles needs before his own. Maybe if the brother did this Doodle wouldn’t have died.

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    1. Questions: Is Aunt Nicey Crazy?
      Did Doodle ever think that his brother might hate and despise him? Is that why he always want to hang onto him?
      With us being humans and imperfect will we always have the selfish need to put our feelings before others even if it might harm the people we love?
      How does quilt affect us depending on how strong we are?

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    2. I don't think Doodle ever though that his brother hated him. I think that Doodle wanted to hangout with him all the time because he loved having a brother. They had so much fun together and Doodle loved having fun and enjoying life and he did it with his brother.

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  32. Poem answers

    1. Don’t grow up too fast. Give yourself time to grow in life, live in the moment and enjoy it. Do not be too eager to grow up, we still have plenty to learn. Everything will happen when it is supposed to, just give it time.
    2. Patience is key.

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  33. 1.) Doodle’s great big red bird that he found in his backyard was very similar to Doodle. First of all it had some problems it was uncoordinated, it looked like it was sick, and it most likely went through a storm that brought it to them. Doodle was uncoordinated, he crawled backwards when he was little. Doodle had a caul and a caul deforms the head just a bit so he didn’t look “normal.” Doodle also went through a lot he didn’t even wake up until four months, and no one expected him to live.
    2.) The scarlet Ibis was the most important piece of scenery. It was red which is the color of danger, determination, blood, as well as love, and desire. And when it died right in front of doodle who resembled in many ways just shot me and said they are going to share the same fate.
    3.) Well what really got me thinking that I have a little brother that reminded me a lot about Doodle, so when he died at the end I imagined me holding him lifeless and it really struck me that you can’t take things for granted but you realize you need it more once it’s gone.
    1. The poems message is that you can’t care too much for something or else they will no longer want you. I completely agree with me assessment that people can be too clingy and in most cases that can be really annoying.
    2. It reminds me of a song whose cores goes “just hold on loosely, but don’t let go. If you cling too tightly you’re going to lose control. And it just says that to me.


    1.) What do different types of trees symbolize in the text? How does it influence the story?
    2.) How did the narrator progress in the story? Did it change a lot, just a little or not at all?

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  34. I believe that the scarlet ibis is a symbol for Doodle in very many creative ways. When Doodle’s family is admiring the bird it says,”...but the wings were uncoordinated, and amid much flapping and a spray of flying feathers...” This part of the story relates to when Doddle is struggling to learn to walk. The bird is trying to be free again, like Doodle was trying to learn how to walk. Doodle was stuck and he couldn’t walk, just like the bird was trying to fly. He also dies similar to the bird because when the bird dies the text says that, “ Its legs were crossed and it’s claw like feet were delicately curved at rest.” The quote when Doodle dies is similar, “... ace buried in his arms, which were resting on his drawn- up knees.”
    A sensory image that I felt was really powerful was, “ The sun, gilded with the yellow cast of autumn, still burned fiercely.” This moved me so much because I found me seeing this picture in my head so vividly. I could see exactly what Hurst was trying to put in our heads.
    I think that I took a lot things away from this story the most, I thought a lot about this story and what the author was trying to get the reader to take away from this story. One thing that I really thought about was when the brother was trying to teach Doodle to walk I felt felt the frustration of the brother. I also think that when we are watching or teaching someone that is easy us and we see that person struggling because we don’ t understand how hard they might be trying. Also I took that when we are ashamed of something we want to get rid of it, but sometimes there are time that you can’t be ashamed of what you can’t get rid of, you have to embrace it.
    I think that the poems message is that sometime when you want to help someone, that might not always be the right thing to do. I do agree with the poems message because some people need to learn for themselves. Give it a chance to seek the sunlight for for itself.
    That even though it seems like the plant seems like it needs help that the really best thing for it is to leave it alone , and let it grow on its own.

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  35. “Scarlet Ibis” by James Hurst.

    Doodle, since birth, has struggled along to so much as walk and run. Things we take for granted. When the scarlet Ibis died in the yard the text said, “How many miles it had traveled to die like this.” That symbolises how far Doodle had come and how hard he had worked just to die on the the side of the sidewalk just before school. The Ibis was all of Doodles life summed up into several second. And with such a horrible ending.
    There are two connected sets of imagery that I find the most powerful. At the start of the story, the brother is yearning for a brother to play with him. “...and I wanted more than anything someone to race to Horsehead Landing, someone to box with, someone to perch with in the top fork of the great pine behind the barn, where across the fields and swamps you could see the sea. I wanted a brother.” And a little while later in the story when the brother decides to bring Doodle to Old Woman Swamp and the text describes what they would do, “I would gather wildflowers, wild violets, honeysuckle, yellow jasmine, snakeflowers and water lilies, and with wiregrass we’d weave them into necklaces and crowns. We’d bedeck ourselves with our handiwork and loll about thus beautified, beyond the touch of everyday world.” These two sets compare what kind of brother the brother had wanted and what he got instead. The two are not all that different except in the sense of what they do. The brother had imagined a brother that could do everything with him but instead he got a brother that he did everything with.
    This story, among other things, is overall a sad story. You have a disabled and a discouraging brother who in the start was nearly dead and in the end is dead. There is little triumph and so much failure. The one thing that I take away from this story is the value of goals and companionship. The two brothers strive to get Doodle to become normal and be able to do the things that other children can. And the two enjoy each others companionship and Doodle really looks up to his brother. When Doodle dies, the amount of grief then and after in almost impenetrable. I hate to think what if I lost one of my siblings.

    “Woman with Flower,” Naomi Long Madgett

    The poem’s message is that there is such a thing as overdoing it. The poem uses a growing flower to symbolise this. I agree with this yet I believe that there is a balance. If you do not nurture it at all the plant could die. This is in relation to “The Scarlet Ibis” because the brother pushes his brother too hard and he unfortunately dies.

    This poem can offer the narrator of this story advice and wisdom to not over exert him brother.

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  36. “The Scarlet Ibis”
    1.) The Scarlet Ibis is a symbol of Doodle because when the bird was a long way from home The Scarlet Ibis was suppose to be in south america and was in florida and was slowly dieing. The Scarlet Ibis was also not afraid. Doodle lived longer than he should have and was slowing dying. Doodle never showed fear just like the bird, even when he would give up for just a second he would just cry and then get back up again. Doodle got weaker everyday but he still tried his hardest and did what his brother said. Doodle never gave up, he had pride in himself and in his brother.

    2.) The image that is most powerful in my opinion is “he had been bleeding from the mouth, and his neck and the front of his shirt were stained a brilliant red.” That was most powerful because I picture this little boy laying on the ground and his older brother turns him over and there is blood everywhere. If that was mean I wouldn't know what to do. I would have no idea how to tell my parents. If i would Doodles brother, I would have probably blamed his death on myself because he did keep pushing Doodle and they told Doodle not to get to tired, one day he did and if I was in the position I would not know how to handle it I would probably beat myself up inside for awhile.

    3.) This story spoke to me in a couple of different ways. One is that at the beginning of the story when Doodle was born and his brother said “so I began to kill him by smothering him with a pillow.” I don’t even know how to respond to that. How could a bother say that about is new born baby brother that is really sick and might not live? This made me think of my niece because she was born sick and we didn't know if she was gonna live and I was so upset when I heard that, she might not live but then she did and I was so happy. For someone to just think about killing someone just it hurts to hear that. Second, I don’t understand why Doodle’s brother was so embarrassed by his brother. What I mean is that when Doodle’s brother wanted to teach his brother how to walk because he was embarrassed having a brother that couldn’t walk.


    “The Woman with a Flower”

    1.) The poem’s message is that like if you love something don’t mess with it because it could leave or die. Honestly I don't agree with the message the poem is trying to tell use because if you learn to leave something that you love alone it wont love you back and it is definitely gonna leave. I mean you don’t wanna mess thing up with something you love but you don't want to leave it alone.

    2.) This poem’s message toward “The Scarlet Ibis” is that Doodle’s brother should have not messed with Doodle and push him to walk, boxing, and swimming. I think thats what the poem means by don't mess with something you love because Doodle died because his brother messed with him and pushed him to hard.

    Question
    1.)Did Doodle’s brother really want a little brother?

    2.)Why didn't they get ride of the coffin that they made fo Doodle? Why did he show Doodle?

    3.)What do you think was going through Doodle’s brothers mind when his brother died on his watch?


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    1. In response to your first question, I don't think it was a matter of wanting or not wanting a little brother, I think it was more the fact that he didn't want a little brother that was different from all the others.

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  37. 1. I believe that the scarlet ibis is symbolic of Doodle because, its different; just like Doodle. Doodle found the ibis sitting up in a bleeding tree. Doodle seemed to be entranced by big, red, bird. Doodle's brother said he had never seen him sit still for so long. All of a sudden the bird fell out of the tree. When it landed, it broke it's fragile neck. Doodle seems to feel sorry for the bird. As the family eats, Doodle dug a hole in the yard for the bird. A bit later on, Doodle passes away. The bird becomes even more symbolic at this point because Doodle dies also, by breaking his neck.

    2. One sensory image that I felt during the story when the family was all looking at the bird, I could almost imagine it perfectly. I imagined all standing together in front of a sunny, southern house; all of them gazing up into a tree. I could nearly smell the sap of the bleeding tree and the sweet air.

    3. I took away from this story because it made me want to be a better influence for my sister. It made me realize to always be good to my siblings. I always want to be there for my sister.

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  38. “The Scarlet Ibis” by James Hurst

    1. The scarlet ibis symbolizes Doodle throughout the story from the very beginning. The ibis is described as “uncoordinated” while at the same time, it lay on the ground, dead, yet so very graceful. One specific quote from the text that masks this description perfectly is “ Even death did not mar its grace, for it lay on the earth like a broken vase of red flowers, and we stood around it, awed by its exotic beauty.” I believe that this quote completely symbolizes Doodle. Again, this idea of beauty on the inside has come up and in the case of Doodle, I think this idea was very prevalent. Even though Doodle did have some disabilities, he was a phenomenal person on the inside that just wanted to fit in. The way that the bird is described as somewhat clumsy, yet with the utmost grace really connects back to Doodle and his personality. Doodle was graceful even during his time of despair, he still had that “exotic beauty” inside of him.

    2. One form of sensory imagery that I found very prevalent throughout the story was sight. Through almost every line that Hurst incorporated into the story, I could create some sort of image in my mind. Of course, the one that stood out to me the most was when Doodle faced his death. When I read the lines, “He was sitting on the ground, his face buried in his arms, which were resting on his drawn-up knees.”, I got chills. This reminded me of the situation that I had with my dad and that image suddenly popped back into my mind. Then I read, “ ' Doodle!' I screamed above the pounding storm and threw my body to the earth above his. For a long time, it seemed forever, I lay there crying.” This line actually brought me to tears. Again I re-gained that image of my dad in my head, but I could also feel his ache and his pain inside of me. I know how it feels to loose someone so very important to you, and I fully understand that feeling of “forever” and laying there crying wishing not to say goodbye.

    3. Ultimately, I took away this feeling of redemption from reading this short story. I realize that it sounds weird to say that, but I feel like this really teaches how to not take your life for granted. It is truly a complete blessing to wake up everyday and go to sleep every night, because you never know which day will be your last. Another thing that the story symbolized in a way was the idea of loving someone selflessly with all of your heart. Along with letting them know that you have that love for them. Overall, this story spoke to me in many different ways which fully affected the way I was able to connect with the story itself.

    4. This poem seems to imply that things/people need the ability to blossom into what it is naturally going to become. It gives of the idea that you can't force into to become something that it's not because in the end, it will dry up in the “sun”. I do agree with the poems messages because I believe that this idea of becoming yourself is extremely important. The line, “The leaf's inclined to find its own direction; give it a chance to seek the sunlight for itself.” stands true in my mind. I love the way that the author of the poem incorporates this idea of self sufficiency and becoming whatever it is that you want to become.

    In some ways, I feel like this poem would tell the narrator to let Doodle grow on his own. Especially when he has as many struggles as he does. However, at the same time I feel like this poem wouldn't completely help Doodle's situation because he is one that would need that extra encouragement. Honestly, I think that this poem has a very interesting, yet subtle way of tying itself into the “Scarlet Ibis.”

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  39. My level 2 questions:
    ~What was going through the mind of the narrator while he was leaving Doodle?

    ~Why did the parents seem so dis-involved in Doodle's life and the many things that he was working to accomplish?

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  40. My level 3 questions:
    ~How can our ego/pride effect who we choose to put first, ourselves or those that we love?

    ~Does it take something as horrific as death to realize to appreciate waking up every morning and starting a new day?

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